[cake]

Pancake Changes:
Since Luzz's decision is not set in stone. Debate over the topic should still be valid. Instead of attacking the cards that cause the spam of healing items, there should be a debate over the healing items. Should there be a change to the healing items. Why or Why not?

3 Kiels Creator?
I remember reading at least 20 posts from Grandpa over Kiel Creator. There is more than one class that can use kiels, but since most of the problem evolved around creator, I'm just going to use that as an example. Should there be a change with Kiel. Why or Why not?

ETC.

My Opinion:
Pancake- A 3 second delay might be a little too longer. How about a 1 second delay for pancake instead? A 1 second delay will slow the spamming of pancake, but will still be fast enough to save a player from dying. (In Theory)

Kiels- People work hard for their cards, but with so many comment over the topic, why not limited kiel stacking to 2. OR Change Kiel from headgear to footgear, which sound a little too much in my opinion.

I know the trial will happen, but I wanted more than just one trial.
This will not happen anytime soon either, so we can use this time to determine what type of change we actually want with WoE. Luzz doesn't WoE, no matter how many time he test, the result will just be biased.

Beside testing just the 3 second delay one pancake. I also want to test a shorter delay that will slow spamming, but always will enable the player to stay alive. Not the LK rush and spam idea. But an idea that will be able to compromise between the two parties.

Also, please do not start blaming cards for anything since Luzz will not remove the cards. Any type of debate will be welcome. If anyone feel the need to attack each other with words, please go to PVP where you can put the words into action.

Krimson Hawk's Opinion: The entire topic was about removal/nerfing of healing items and thus class skills should not even be in this suggestion, start a new suggestion thread for taking away priests and chemists major class specific healing abilities. See how well that flies

Back when I woe'd on official servers healing items weren't even allowed and that's on 99/70. Woe's were very challenging and tactical, you didn't see a swarm of 10 LK's without any support classes like you do now due to the fact that they can just spam heals on themselves. Let's say ALL heal items were banned from woe in this hypothetical scenario. It would force people to actually think before acting just as I used to need to. It would make support classes that much more effective because now you need to rely on those class specific skills to heal/buff etc. It would bring far more strategy to WoE then senseless heal spams and charge in blindly without having to worry about much.

I agree with cake about the trial period, it could cause a problem for some guilds and individual players if we suddenly revert back to a spamfest. The best way to trial anything would be all heals items banned aside from class specific skills as stated above. This way nobody loses out on items, wastes zeny etc. For such a change like this, I'd recommend at least 3 weeks warning so people can prepare for that change via support classes, tactics and what not. On the servers I was on there was not one single complaint on a pop. of 1000+ with no heal items allowed. That population difference is staggering, but perhaps if WoE became more challenging and tactical it could strike a rise in more players coming to the server. WoE would actually be exciting as you'd have to use your head
Luzz's 2 cent:
I will go off-topic for a moment:

Personally, I do not care what type of drama two (or more) players wish to bestow upon themselves. Any player who wants to use their time and energy to entertain THEMSELVES with their pointless drama - be my guest. Do it on your own time, with your own energy, in PRIVATE. Waste your own time, waste your own energy, tango the night away.

The moment it is brought out into the public, after I specifically stated to keep it personal and private, it becomes a COLOSSAL waste of my time.

I respect players enough to tell them to keep it private. I do not believe in being harsh. However, I expect players to respect me enough to not waste my time as well.

Players, please keep this in mind, as you all conduct your daily forum and in-game activities.

That all said - please do not respond to what I wrote above.



Regarding the issue at hand - yes, you all are free to discuss this further. Again, I personally do not have a preference. If anything, I think nothing should be done. Once the pancakes are all used up, this is a moot point. However, if a change is desired, it should solve this issue now, and for the future.

Players who are so adverse to a trial period - again, I ask 'Why?' Trialing is the only way players can experience the change, then say 'It is too long' or 'It is too short' or 'Remove it completely'. How can you know what it is like if you do not give it a go?

Also - regarding the poll - I do not think it is clear what Yay and Nay refers to. If the original poster can clarify this, it would help everyone voice their opinion.

Nightshade:
Get back on topic.

I say go for the trial, give the server a notice of when it will happen, Class specific skills and no healing items.

If people fear change, things will NEVER get done. Learn to adapt, and if you cannot adapt, then there are some problems.
lykanthropy
Honestly, I personally feel that all healing items should be removed during woe only and allow the classes that have the healing skills to use them. Don't have a priest or a chemist in your guild? Recruit or make one. I don't want to hear whining about cards either.
AbaraiGirl
i think the 3 second delay is the compromise. 50% want pancakes/giggles/healing items gone completely. 50% dont. so there is your compromise..delay so you cant spam those things like mad. As luzz stated in a prior thread..this will just lead to the retreat/heal strategy. (one i happen to use often being a low vit sniper)

as for those who depend on pancakes to defend their castles....and those who depend on them to raid a castle....i think this trial will just force people to think outside the box and find a new strategy. Where there is a will, there is way. i have seen my guilds (past and current) lose and gain castles due to pancakes but i wouldnt say that's the only or main reason our castles were lost or gained. It all comes back to having an effective strategy, regardless of the healing items you use. I think most people who "depend" on those pancakes are merely cutting themselves short and using it as a "security blanket" so to speak. Maybe taking them away will allow them to reach their full potential. not to mention i wont feel so much like an idiot when i'm carrying 50+ gigs and fail to use them in the heat of battle. (yes i've done that numerous times...and died because of my idiocy xD)
smx123
id say the suggestion will greatly benefit guilds with chemists. and will cause unbalance. suggestions are used to balance the server. well that's my opinion. luzz decides. lol

EdgarGrimfang
If I may, my proposal on healing items is this...

20% or higher healing items = Excluded from WoE entirely

Giggling Boxes, alongside pancakes and any healing item 9%
or above = 1.5 ~ 2 second delay

Anything below 9% should not have a delay (A .5 second delay if anything), seeing as such a low healing rate would be rather inconsequential in terms of battle regeneration.
Scarling
I'd like to remind everyone that Luzz did say if you had any feedback to reply directly to him and not eachother. With that said, I dont see how starting the same thread over and over will really change anything.

Anyway, I think suggesting to remove/change class skills and/or cards because they make certain skills too powerful is silly, and why not suggest removing 2 slotted headgear if too many kiels or bascos is the problem.

Not that I personally think that should happen, because I dont. I just dont undersatnd why that is not being suggested instead of changing official skills and cards. The skills and cards would not be so powerful if there were only 2 headgear slots, So why suggest removie skills from a couple classes instead of suggesting to remove the option for more headgear slots??? Because it would probably gimp your class, right? Who really goes into woe with 2/5 headgear slots filled. Also there are other very powerful cards that are useful for other classes that are not beneficial to these healing classes what so ever, like thanatos for example. Going by what you guys are saying maybe only 1 slotted weapons should be used in WOE since thanatos with damage multipliers is so powerful. EDP isnt fun either. I think you can see where this is going ...

Suggesting to remove class skills / cards is just ridiculous when the number of slots to put them in is what makes them so powerful. And how powerful they are shouldnt even be a problem since (like someone mentioned earlier, but I cant find the post to quote it) the players who have these cards worked hard to farm/donated or farmed zeny to buy gold coins to get these cards, and anyone else could do the same thing.
tehdarke
There is so much going on in this topic >.> hard to keep up lol But someone wanted me to post so i will. UHHHHH To put in plain and simple and ive said it many of times but i just want to say it again even tho its already been discussed. NO PANCAKES Very Happy! If possible get rid of them and also giggles >.> but if delayed thats fine Very Happy You can always try it out and if it sucks or people wanna complain then if enough people dont like it then change it back o.o In my opinion there is nothing wrong with a trail atleast.
I could care less about the cards that people have. They have them so get over it. No matter if they hunted it or bought it. They got them fair and square so no need to really talk about it. In yet im sure like in every topic it will be brought up. /sigh o well that is my opinion on the cakes Very Happy!
Toroto
For the records, i am not into the trial or even trial(s).

I just dont see the valid reason, why?

This is not a test server. But, if you really want things to happen quickly, or at least happening. Gather those major legit voices, gave the admin those scripts (in order to get faster effect, it its go through), no?

Luzz and his staffs are not here only to hear you guys, +1 to this luzz,
No, -1 to that Luzz. Implement this, implement that. For example, you might want to rumble the debate of asprika, and after it got *banned* from woe. There's another thread asking for it to come back. iLol.

I have to admit, no matter what the decision is. There always be someone/people who didn't like it. Thus, keep nagging. Will that result in good result? Or viceversa?
For me, that's childish. (my opinion tho, not attacking anyone >3<)

I am not trying to argue with/or flame anyone, if this is an open forum, then I want to get some fun too. :B

]Kellie[

[yoh]

i respect your opinion about the pancakes but if it ony has a 1 sec delay it may be used to keep them alive but it would still be close to a "who can out spam who" type fight thus making those that chose not to use them still be at a relative disadvatage ...not saing that the 3 sec delay makes it compleatly even but its closer and its pretty fair as well

[cake]

If you think my opinion is still not going to help, then you should always include a suggestion. Not trying to sound mean, I just want more suggestion. It's easier to come up with a compromise if more people type their opinion.

[yoh]

[NightShade]

Kiels = Bragi, No use in bringing up another topic about them, this is starting to become like a broken record..
_________________



SOS OG - Retired 3/16/10
Chars:
X t C / Vamp / NightShade / Dark Pulse / Absolute / Whiskey / Nightz / I'm done listing =.=

[Leilani]

Can we please stop re-opening this topic?
Luzz gets it guys, and he's down for trying out a delay on healing items.

Case Closed.
Edit: Oops sorry nightshade, you posted right when i did .__.

[cake]

NightShade: Bragi does not equal Kiels. Kiels is an item Bragi is another person or dual account. Therefore, they're not the same. If they're the same then why are people still hunting kiels? Why are people paying so much for Kiel, but not gear up a Clown for Bragi? If you truly think they're the same why are you using kiel, but not a clown? Clown is a fragile class. I think it's clear enough that they're not the same. People will not stop complaining about Kiels; why not find a compromise between the two parties.

Leilani: If you haven't notice that Luzz stated that his decision is not set in stone. If you want to stop this then you don't need to post. I opening this thread to gather people opinion over Luzz's decision.

[EdgarGrimfang]

This discussion needs to die already. We will try Luzz's new delay proposal. It is not set in stone, so if it creates a huge problem, it CAN be reversed. No harm, no foul.

Cake, while I respect your opinion, this discussion is a losing battle. The best we can do is to sit back, give the change a try, and then go from there with suggestions and such.

I personally don't like the idea, but if it's for the good of the server, it's for the good of the server and that should be what matters.
_________________
"The World will know that free men stood against a tyrant. That few, stood against many, and before this battle was over, that even a God-King can bleed." -Leonidas to Xerxes

[GRANDPA DREADNAUGHT]

Wow what I said actually mattered on this little forum? XD

Wow never thought I would see the day.
_________________

[cake]

Edgar- In my opinion, there shouldn't even be a 3 second Test Trial due to the fact that everybody whines about dying to kiels creator in 1 sec. Both side always argue why not pick one where both side agree on first before testing any idea.

Grandpa- You're a living human being, so you should matter. However, the way you stated your reason on certain topic is very childish. I agree with some of your idea, but will not approach it the same way you did.

[GRANDPA DREADNAUGHT]

[NightShade]

I have Kiels because I chose to get Kiels, if I didn't have Kiels, I would use Bragi. Once again, Kiels = Bragi... This being my last post in this thread.

Tootles.
_________________



SOS OG - Retired 3/16/10
Chars:
X t C / Vamp / NightShade / Dark Pulse / Absolute / Whiskey / Nightz / I'm done listing =.=

[Bubbaknoxz]

[EdgarGrimfang]

@cake: And in my opinion, I also do not think there should be a trial period, and I would like to see a compromise, but I just do not see it happening, that is why I am content with sitting and waiting.

I would love to see 1 second delay, but it still will devolve into "WoE is just a big heal fest" arguments again.
_________________
"The World will know that free men stood against a tyrant. That few, stood against many, and before this battle was over, that even a God-King can bleed." -Leonidas to Xerxes

[cake]

Grandpa- I understand that people work hard for their cards, but I don't understand how can some one state that Bragi and Kiels are the same. Since they're not. There are plenty of argument that involved Rares, but never once it been approve by Luzz since he doesn't want to change the game play.