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  Topic: 6% more heal delay its not good
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Toft



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Sekiria wrote:
That having been said, I agree with the changes and would push for 6 myself.


Seconded.
Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:36 pm
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Sephiroth7500



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Toft wrote:
Sekiria wrote:
That having been said, I agree with the changes and would push for 6 myself.


Seconded.


Make it the lucky number 7!
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:45 pm
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Feronis



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I don't think there should be a strict X seconds for X amount of heal, as it penalizes less heals for the same amount as greater heals.

If the heal delay equation went something like :

Delay (seconds) = e^( %Healed * 4/33)

Then all healing items would be penalized according to how much they heal; however, as it takes longer to heal up using smaller % heal items, they should be a bit less. With this equation,

Pancakes = 10% healed --> 3.36 sec delay
Giggles = 9% healed ------> 2.97 sec delay
Mixed Juice = 3% healed --> 1.43 sec delay

As this would represent a mathematically just way of effecting everything of the same type instead of just selecting a cut off percentage and a hard delay. You can adjust the "4/33" term to either inflate or deflate the delay, where the delay's magnitude increases/decreases very rapidly for higher percentage healing items. I don't know how hard this would be to code.


The only problem that I have with healing items having a delay is that is a huge buff towards the all ready present paradigm of Creators and Lord Knights.

While Lord Knights were the main users of healing items that I have seen, it is expected due to the large hp pools. With this delay, they will become the *only* people who will use healing items in combat. Before the nerf, I have seen stalkers and other smaller hp pooled classes giggle/pancake through my cold bolts. While it was annoying that I got shut down by something anyone could do without thinking, at least they had to farm or pay for it, consistently proportional to how much they use it (as compared to other things that shut me down such as GTB... )

But now, the imbalance between huge hp pools and small hp pools healing with these items is more vast. While it has become significantly easier to kill both, it has become waaaaaay easier to kill lower hp pools, as I can kill a low hp class from full in 3 sec, while I can't always kill an LK in that time.

I do like the change, however, as it promotes players doing something active in between the heal delay! As now you cannot just sit there and spam. Maybe if instead of a hard delay, there was a way to lower the effectiveness by a percentage for a certain time period since last heal? That way you could still try and heal an initial burst while trying to swap the right gear, promoting a action-reaction game play while still limiting spam.

Also, with these changes, Slim Potion Pitcher is much more viable. I mean, with the right set up, it all ready healed more than pancakes/giggles. Even without cards, it's heal is pretty good: with a little after cast delay/Bragi, super powerful. Now, you might argue that another player *must actively be healing the other player*, but to that, when a player giggles/pancakes, *they must actively be spamming it.* When a player giggles/pancakes, they aren't attacking just buying time, trying to get to a better position, etc.

So these change has buffed the all ready powerful classes while nerfing the lower hp classes, creating a bigger divide.

I'm not trying to whine or fight about it, just note how I see the changes. I mean, the nerf to healing items is actually a huge buff to my class (professor).
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:38 pm
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Kiku-Ichiomonjii



Joined: 05 Jun 2009
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You go girl.
Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:42 pm
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EdgarGrimfang



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Feronis wrote:
I don't think there should be a strict X seconds for X amount of heal, as it penalizes less heals for the same amount as greater heals.

If the heal delay equation went something like :

Delay (seconds) = e^( %Healed * 4/33)

Then all healing items would be penalized according to how much they heal; however, as it takes longer to heal up using smaller % heal items, they should be a bit less. With this equation,

Pancakes = 10% healed --> 3.36 sec delay
Giggles = 9% healed ------> 2.97 sec delay
Mixed Juice = 3% healed --> 1.43 sec delay

As this would represent a mathematically just way of effecting everything of the same type instead of just selecting a cut off percentage and a hard delay. You can adjust the "4/33" term to either inflate or deflate the delay, where the delay's magnitude increases/decreases very rapidly for higher percentage healing items. I don't know how hard this would be to code.


The only problem that I have with healing items having a delay is that is a huge buff towards the all ready present paradigm of Creators and Lord Knights.

While Lord Knights were the main users of healing items that I have seen, it is expected due to the large hp pools. With this delay, they will become the *only* people who will use healing items in combat. Before the nerf, I have seen stalkers and other smaller hp pooled classes giggle/pancake through my cold bolts. While it was annoying that I got shut down by something anyone could do without thinking, at least they had to farm or pay for it, consistently proportional to how much they use it (as compared to other things that shut me down such as GTB... )

But now, the imbalance between huge hp pools and small hp pools healing with these items is more vast. While it has become significantly easier to kill both, it has become waaaaaay easier to kill lower hp pools, as I can kill a low hp class from full in 3 sec, while I can't always kill an LK in that time.

I do like the change, however, as it promotes players doing something active in between the heal delay! As now you cannot just sit there and spam. Maybe if instead of a hard delay, there was a way to lower the effectiveness by a percentage for a certain time period since last heal? That way you could still try and heal an initial burst while trying to swap the right gear, promoting a action-reaction game play while still limiting spam.

Also, with these changes, Slim Potion Pitcher is much more viable. I mean, with the right set up, it all ready healed more than pancakes/giggles. Even without cards, it's heal is pretty good: with a little after cast delay/Bragi, super powerful. Now, you might argue that another player *must actively be healing the other player*, but to that, when a player giggles/pancakes, *they must actively be spamming it.* When a player giggles/pancakes, they aren't attacking just buying time, trying to get to a better position, etc.

So these change has buffed the all ready powerful classes while nerfing the lower hp classes, creating a bigger divide.

I'm not trying to whine or fight about it, just note how I see the changes. I mean, the nerf to healing items is actually a huge buff to my class (professor).


Logic will NOT be tolerated on these here forums. Do you understand me?
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:04 pm
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Malfunction



Joined: 13 Dec 2010
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Feronis wrote:
I don't think there should be a strict X seconds for X amount of heal, as it penalizes less heals for the same amount as greater heals.

If the heal delay equation went something like :

Delay (seconds) = e^( %Healed * 4/33)

Then all healing items would be penalized according to how much they heal; however, as it takes longer to heal up using smaller % heal items, they should be a bit less. With this equation,

Pancakes = 10% healed --> 3.36 sec delay
Giggles = 9% healed ------> 2.97 sec delay
Mixed Juice = 3% healed --> 1.43 sec delay

As this would represent a mathematically just way of effecting everything of the same type instead of just selecting a cut off percentage and a hard delay. You can adjust the "4/33" term to either inflate or deflate the delay, where the delay's magnitude increases/decreases very rapidly for higher percentage healing items. I don't know how hard this would be to code.


The only problem that I have with healing items having a delay is that is a huge buff towards the all ready present paradigm of Creators and Lord Knights.

While Lord Knights were the main users of healing items that I have seen, it is expected due to the large hp pools. With this delay, they will become the *only* people who will use healing items in combat. Before the nerf, I have seen stalkers and other smaller hp pooled classes giggle/pancake through my cold bolts. While it was annoying that I got shut down by something anyone could do without thinking, at least they had to farm or pay for it, consistently proportional to how much they use it (as compared to other things that shut me down such as GTB... )

But now, the imbalance between huge hp pools and small hp pools healing with these items is more vast. While it has become significantly easier to kill both, it has become waaaaaay easier to kill lower hp pools, as I can kill a low hp class from full in 3 sec, while I can't always kill an LK in that time.

I do like the change, however, as it promotes players doing something active in between the heal delay! As now you cannot just sit there and spam. Maybe if instead of a hard delay, there was a way to lower the effectiveness by a percentage for a certain time period since last heal? That way you could still try and heal an initial burst while trying to swap the right gear, promoting a action-reaction game play while still limiting spam.

Also, with these changes, Slim Potion Pitcher is much more viable. I mean, with the right set up, it all ready healed more than pancakes/giggles. Even without cards, it's heal is pretty good: with a little after cast delay/Bragi, super powerful. Now, you might argue that another player *must actively be healing the other player*, but to that, when a player giggles/pancakes, *they must actively be spamming it.* When a player giggles/pancakes, they aren't attacking just buying time, trying to get to a better position, etc.

So these change has buffed the all ready powerful classes while nerfing the lower hp classes, creating a bigger divide.

I'm not trying to whine or fight about it, just note how I see the changes. I mean, the nerf to healing items is actually a huge buff to my class (professor).


This is by far the only sensible thing that has been posted on this suggestion rather then just more or less delay. If we could see more posts like this it would be much more productive.

From participating in yesterdays woe i would have to say that heal spam has been pretty much eradicated. Healing items at this point have been reduced to an after math healing item. I would have to say the healing item delay might be a new spin on things and its worth a try and things seemed to go well in the woe. The lack of healing items gives a bit more of a sense of cautiousness and a little more planning in order to over come the loss of the items and it was interesting.

The suggestion to increase the delay to 6 seconds i feel is a bit overkill. It's very obvious that you cant spam through damage any longer with a 3 second delay. Healing after a big fight would become unnecessarily tedious with having to sit there and heal up with that long of a delay.

Lets look at it this way. A character who is at 1% hp will have to use in this example giggling boxes (since they seem to be the most prominent healing item) will take 11 giggling boxes since it is 9% heal. That's 11 x 3 = 33 seconds to heal to full. After a fight having to sit there for 30+ seconds to heal to full assuming your half dead seems like quite a long time. Consider healing with a 6 second delay that's a whole minute of healing which seems kinda ridiculous. If 3 second delay into healing items is allowing someone to flat out heal your damage then maybe it might be time to as previously stated "adapt" your own build a bit rather then saying it should be doubled to make healing after a fight the worst thing ever.

So as i stated this heal delay is interesting and it will be fun to see it pan out but why don't we have a little fun with this scenario that luzz has so graciously worked his ass off for before we just ask for more.
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:17 pm
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EdgarGrimfang



Joined: 07 Mar 2010
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Malfunction wrote:
Feronis wrote:
I'm Justin and heres this awesome explanation!


I'm Malfy! and I agree with Justin!


And I'm Edgar, and I am too lazy to reiterate what those two have already said. Needless to say, those asking for a six second delay sound vindictive, and like overkill.

There seemed to be just a little more structure in WoE with this update, but as Justin said, people died like wicked fast. The low HP classes had like zero staying power when faced down with a charge of the higher HP classes, so any advantage the lower HP guys could have had was nerfed. If anything, WoE was made easier without healing items, and from what I understand, easy WoE's are bad WoE's in the eyes of the majority of Reign.
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:35 pm
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Venser



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I actually like the equation idea.

WHOA GM VENSER LIKES AN IDEA?! Wink
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GlitchyVirus



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Malfunction wrote:
Feronis wrote:
I don't think there should be a strict X seconds for X amount of heal, as it penalizes less heals for the same amount as greater heals.

If the heal delay equation went something like :

Delay (seconds) = e^( %Healed * 4/33)

Then all healing items would be penalized according to how much they heal; however, as it takes longer to heal up using smaller % heal items, they should be a bit less. With this equation,

Pancakes = 10% healed --> 3.36 sec delay
Giggles = 9% healed ------> 2.97 sec delay
Mixed Juice = 3% healed --> 1.43 sec delay

As this would represent a mathematically just way of effecting everything of the same type instead of just selecting a cut off percentage and a hard delay. You can adjust the "4/33" term to either inflate or deflate the delay, where the delay's magnitude increases/decreases very rapidly for higher percentage healing items. I don't know how hard this would be to code.


The only problem that I have with healing items having a delay is that is a huge buff towards the all ready present paradigm of Creators and Lord Knights.

While Lord Knights were the main users of healing items that I have seen, it is expected due to the large hp pools. With this delay, they will become the *only* people who will use healing items in combat. Before the nerf, I have seen stalkers and other smaller hp pooled classes giggle/pancake through my cold bolts. While it was annoying that I got shut down by something anyone could do without thinking, at least they had to farm or pay for it, consistently proportional to how much they use it (as compared to other things that shut me down such as GTB... )

But now, the imbalance between huge hp pools and small hp pools healing with these items is more vast. While it has become significantly easier to kill both, it has become waaaaaay easier to kill lower hp pools, as I can kill a low hp class from full in 3 sec, while I can't always kill an LK in that time.

I do like the change, however, as it promotes players doing something active in between the heal delay! As now you cannot just sit there and spam. Maybe if instead of a hard delay, there was a way to lower the effectiveness by a percentage for a certain time period since last heal? That way you could still try and heal an initial burst while trying to swap the right gear, promoting a action-reaction game play while still limiting spam.

Also, with these changes, Slim Potion Pitcher is much more viable. I mean, with the right set up, it all ready healed more than pancakes/giggles. Even without cards, it's heal is pretty good: with a little after cast delay/Bragi, super powerful. Now, you might argue that another player *must actively be healing the other player*, but to that, when a player giggles/pancakes, *they must actively be spamming it.* When a player giggles/pancakes, they aren't attacking just buying time, trying to get to a better position, etc.

So these change has buffed the all ready powerful classes while nerfing the lower hp classes, creating a bigger divide.

I'm not trying to whine or fight about it, just note how I see the changes. I mean, the nerf to healing items is actually a huge buff to my class (professor).


This is by far the only sensible thing that has been posted on this suggestion rather then just more or less delay. If we could see more posts like this it would be much more productive.

From participating in yesterdays woe i would have to say that heal spam has been pretty much eradicated. Healing items at this point have been reduced to an after math healing item. I would have to say the healing item delay might be a new spin on things and its worth a try and things seemed to go well in the woe. The lack of healing items gives a bit more of a sense of cautiousness and a little more planning in order to over come the loss of the items and it was interesting.

The suggestion to increase the delay to 6 seconds i feel is a bit overkill. It's very obvious that you cant spam through damage any longer with a 3 second delay. Healing after a big fight would become unnecessarily tedious with having to sit there and heal up with that long of a delay.

Lets look at it this way. A character who is at 1% hp will have to use in this example giggling boxes (since they seem to be the most prominent healing item) will take 11 giggling boxes since it is 9% heal. That's 11 x 3 = 33 seconds to heal to full. After a fight having to sit there for 30+ seconds to heal to full assuming your half dead seems like quite a long time. Consider healing with a 6 second delay that's a whole minute of healing which seems kinda ridiculous. If 3 second delay into healing items is allowing someone to flat out heal your damage then maybe it might be time to as previously stated "adapt" your own build a bit rather then saying it should be doubled to make healing after a fight the worst thing ever.

So as i stated this heal delay is interesting and it will be fun to see it pan out but why don't we have a little fun with this scenario that luzz has so graciously worked his ass off for before we just ask for more.


I personally am not a fan of during-fight healing. I think that the delay has done well to eradicate the "invincibility" many people had when using it. On the other hand, the 3 second delay is good enough to be used after a fight to heal. 6 seconds is ridiculous, you might as well not use healing items at all.

Actually, I would like to see a 2 second delay. That way it's a little easier to heal after a fight and get back into the fray quicker, but it's not NECESSARY. 3 seconds should do fine.

I very much agree with what both Mark and Feronis have said. They make good points. I also do believe that the idea Feronis proposed is good, though we should still just work with the current way for now until we can see if change is needed.
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:50 pm
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EdgarGrimfang



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Venser wrote:
I actually like the equation idea.

WHOA GM VENSER LIKES AN IDEA?! Wink


There's alot of ideas D: Which one D:
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:59 pm
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AbaraiGirl



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Having been one of the people who voted 'for' the 3 second delay...I like it exactly how it is.

although i'm starting to side with Bean in that i wish healing items werent allowed in woe at all...minus those good ol white pots.
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Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:11 am
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Venser



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EdgarGrimfang wrote:
Venser wrote:
I actually like the equation idea.

WHOA GM VENSER LIKES AN IDEA?! Wink


There's alot of ideas D: Which one D:

Exclamation
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Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:14 am
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tehdarke



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AbaraiGirl wrote:
Having been one of the people who voted 'for' the 3 second delay...I like it exactly how it is.

although i'm starting to side with Bean in that i wish healing items werent allowed in woe at all...minus those good ol white pots.


Very Happy!!!! support @_@!!! lul'd, of course im not a fan of healing items (pancakes/giggles/you get my point) but delay im fine with Wink! aslong as there not spammable then im satisfied Very Happy!
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Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:22 am
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Toft



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I say remove healing items from WoE. Only way to heal up then is with a Biochemist, Champion or Priest.
Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:35 pm
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Feronis



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Toft wrote:
I say remove healing items from WoE. Only way to heal up then is with a Biochemist, Champion or Priest.


Removing healing items would remove a biochemists method of healing as potions would no longer be usable.

While I like your idea because it promotes a bigger threshold class variety over class specialization than the current meta-game, it also promotes classes who heal faster naturally than others which are generally stronger all ready than those classes (e.g. Tension Relax). So it would punish smaller guilds who cannot meet the class variety threshold effectively while rewarding bigger guilds who can, and who can then specialize in min/maxing classes.

However, it would be nice to see Champions in WoE that weren't just Asura-slaves; however, the alternative of healing slaves isn't as appealing either.
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Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:31 pm
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